More on Mary Winkler

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I found some footage of Mary Winkler today on Dateline NBC’s website. They have video and audio files that are worth listening to if you have interest in case.

I found the following video files interesting:

Video: Describes ‘ugly’ part of relationship
Video: Says she was afraid of husband after shooting
And I found the audio recording of her talking to the police right after she was apprehended almost bone chilling.

Audio: “My ugly came out”
Audio: “Winkler says kids her only concern”

Read moreIn the “My ugly came out” audio Mary talks about how she became confident after she got a job at the post office a couple of years ago, and how she got high self-esteem. She talks about how she had been battling this for years. It’s about half-way through the audio. Mary says, “…And it just came back out for some reason, and that’s the problem. I have nerve now and I have self-esteem now. And so my ugly came out.”

How does self-esteem and nerve fit into a victim of abuse scenario? Isn’t that when the woman normally gets enough nerve to walk away?

I thought about writing up a review, but this case is old news so unless I get an overwhelming response from my readers, this will be my last comment on the Winkler case.

NEWS: I had linked to a video of Mary during the testimony that showed Mary make an eerie smile when asked if she “intentionally” shot her husband (here). The link expired, but now I have found the video footage on another site: Court TV.

To Watch

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Click to see it full-sized.

I love photography. So, I was just playing around the other day with a photo of my eye. I like how this turned out to look metallic.

Peculiar McCann Video

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There is a video of the McCanns being interviewed by a reporter on YouTube that is getting attention. People are questioning the interview because Mr. McCann’s behavior is different in this video than in other videos, and they are correct.

In the video, Gerry’s voice loses strength, he smiles, looks away and he scratches his ear. While none of these are clues to deceit by themselves, combined –and compared to other instances of Gerry talking — his behavior here is unique — and that is a red flag.

That is about all that can be said about this video.

Does this video change my original position that I believe the McCanns had nothing to do with the disappearance of their daughter? No, it does not.

Mary Winkler on Oprah

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Listen to and watch Mary Winkler on trial and during her interrogation here. In the audio segment found from the link above titled “My Ugly Came Out” Mary says, “…And it just came back out for some reason, and that’s the problem. I have nerve now and I have self-esteem now. And so my ugly came out.”

* * *

There are two potentials for Mary Winkler: Either her husband abused her and she could no longer take it, and she snapped. Or, it is the unthinkable: Mary’s husband Matthew wasn’t as cruel as she’d like us to believe, and she killed him in cold blood.

I personally believe Mary killed Matthew in cold blood. I felt that way from the day I saw her in court on a video. Her behavior was peculiar. She displayed a microexpression grin contrary to her spoken words when she was asked if she “intentionally” killed her husband that was flat out haunting. Her statements to police were odd and inconsistent as well. And now again, Mary’s behavior on the Oprah show doesn’t fit with her scenario. Her words and behavior are odd and inconsistent another time. Her facial expressions out-of-place. Except on the Oprah Winfrey show, Mary forgot her facts this time and Oprah caught it. Let’s begin there.

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Point #1:

Look at the inconsistencies in Mary’s different testimonies/statements.

OPRAH: According to Mary’s statement to police, just after 6:00 in the morning, the Winklers’ house on Molly Drive was quiet. Mary and Matthew were asleep in their bed. The Winklers’ youngest daughter, one-year-old Brianna began crying from her crib. According to Mary, Matthew woke up in a rage and stormed into Brianna’s room.

MARY: So I went in there after him and took the baby…took Brianna from him, asked him to let me have her. And got her settled back down.

OPRAH: I had read–I don’t know if it’s true — that’s why I’m interviewing you — that he literally kicked you out of bed.

MARY : Mm-hmm.

OPRAH: So when I read that, I thought, like, with his feet, kicked you out of bed? Is that true?

MARY: That’s correct.

(moments later)

OPRAH: He was trying to suffocate her (Brianna)?

MARY: He was trying to get her to go back to sleep. He…I don’t think he had intentions of killing. He just…trying to get her to pass out.

OPRAH: So what was he doing? What was he doing? Get her to pass out? Really, you have to explain that because that doesn’t make any sense to me or anybody else who’s hearing this.

MARY: Well, I don’t understand it myself.

OPRAH WINFREY (HOST): What did he do?

MARY : Just covered her mouth and her nose.

(moments later)

OPRAH: …cover the baby’s mouth and cover the baby’s nose and then you take the baby from him. And you were obviously upset and, what, he walked away?

MARY: Mm-hmm. Yeah, he just–hmm.

OPRAH: And then what?

MARY: Just…I got her…got her situated, and I just wanted to talk to Matthew.

OPRAH: Mm-hmm.

MARY : And there’s just that awful…awful sound.

Yet oddly, in Mary’s police confession to the police, this is what she said:

“I don’t know of anything he specifically said or did to me to upset me, but I had an uneasiness about me. I remember not sleeping well (the night before the murder). The next morning, the alarm went off 6-6:30 and I got up. He was still in bed. I don’t think I left the room. He had a shotgun he kept in the closet just in case. I don’t remember going to the closet or getting the gun. The next thing I remember was hearing a loud boom, and I remember thinking that it wasn’t as loud as I thought it would be.”

Furthermore, in Mary’s police interrogation transcript on the bottom of page 14, the conversation goes like this:

The police asked Mary,” Had ya’ll talked yet that morning? Had he woke up or did you wake up and do it before he got out of bed?”

Mary says, “He had gotten up but I want to say he’d just gone back for a few more minutes.”

Clearly, Mary is not telling the same story to us. There are big inconsistencies here. Furthermore, what really stands out to me is when Mary says “I remember thinking that it (the gunshot) wasn’t as loud as I thought it would be.” If you don’t anticipate shooting a gun, you have no anticipation for how loud it would be, do you??

Point #2:

Again, look at the inconsistencies in Mary’s different testimonies/statements.

Once Mary shot Matthew, she tells Oprah the following:

OPRAH: Was he dead when you went back into the room?

MARY: That’s what I thought so.

OPRAH: Yeah. Did he say anything?

MARY: No.

OPRAH: To you?

MARY: No, there was nothing.

Yet in Mary’s transcribed statement on March 24, 2006 Mary said:

“I heard the boom and he rolled out of the bed onto the floor and I saw some blood on the floor and some bleeding around his mouth. I went over and wiped his mouth off with a sheet. I told him I was sorry and that I loved him, and I went and ran.I do remember me holding the shotgun, hearing the boom, and then the smell. He asked me why and I just said I was sorry.”

Clearly two different accounts.

Point #3:

I think this is self-explanatory.

OPRAH: Did one of your daughters come into the room?

MARY: No.

OPRAH: I’d read that one of your daughters came into the room.

MARY: Right. She said that she looked in the room, I believe. This is off the top of my head. I don’t think came in. And I could not tell you from my memory…

OPRAH: And you said, daddy had been hurt.

MARY: Mm-hmm.

OPRAH: Do you recall that?

MARY: I’m sure–I don’t remember that exactly, but I know that day, I did say that he was hurt.

Yet Court TV reports the following:

The 9-year-old daughter of a Tennessee preacher was reduced to tears Monday as she described the morning she heard a “boom” in her parents’ bedroom and discovered her father wounded and dying.

“I went in and I saw my daddy face-down on the ground,” Patricia Winkler quietly testified Monday in the first-degree murder trial of her mother, Mary Winkler. “He was just groaning.”

Patricia testified that, before her mother closed the bedroom door on her, she noticed a telephone “behind” her father. When investigators arrived at the scene later that evening, Matthew Winkler was lying face-up and the telephone was unplugged at his feet.

…”She said we were going somewhere special,” said Patricia, describing her mother’s demeanor as “normal” for the next day that they spent driving to Orange Beach, Ala. “She said Daddy was in the hospital.”

Point #4:

Here are a handful of oddities. You have to read the statement first to follow this. I will explain it afterwards.

OPRAH: In court, you also said you felt that you were sexually abused.

MARY: Mm-hmm.

OPRAH: How so?

MARY: You know, when two people have tastes and likes, it’s fine for each person in their own home who agrees. But just…at some point, when there’s one person saying no, not to do something, then the other person who’s just pushed himself on that person and made them do that.

OPRAH: So he would force you to do what? (Mary almost breaks out into a laugh, but works hard to stop it by biting her lip).

MARY: Do sexual acts that I didn’t wanna do.

OPRAH: Uh-huh. I think in court you said you watched pornography…

MARY: Mm-hmm.

OPRAH: …which you didn’t wanna do, oral and anal sex, which you thought were unnatural acts, correct? And when he would force you to do it and you didn’t want to do it, would you tell him? Would you say to him, I don’t want to do it?

MARY: In the…at the moment… I know…I know there were certain times where my natural reaction would have been to push him off and he would stop that. When we were not in the heat of the moment and he would say, what do you think about this or that? And I would say no, don’t like that. Let’s not. And he’d say, okay. But he just would get going and that was just it.

Here during the interview when Oprah started talking about being sexually abused, and says, “So he forces you to do what?” Mary reacts with a grin like a cat who ate a canary. You can tell she wants to laugh. And no, it is not a nervous reaction. Mary was not nervous during this interview. I can guarantee, if you were sexually abused, talking about it would not make you want to laugh. If anything you would want to cover your face, or cry — not laugh.

Furthermore, Mary’s testimony is inconsistent. She says at times her “natural reaction would have been to push him off and he would stop that”. Then she says “he would get going and that was just it.” These are inconsistent number one. Number two, if she was the meek mouse she claims to be who never stood up for herself, would she really push him off? It doesn’t fit with the image she is portraying. And last, her words give her away, “I know there were certain times where my natural reaction would have been to push him off and he would stop that.” This is not how people recollect a story. “Would have been” indicates what she would do in that situation — not what she did do — but then she ends the sentence as if she did do it — because Matthew stopped.

This is a mound of red flags!

Point #5:

Here, I think you can see Mary’s story is absolute nonsense.

OPRAH: Did you wanna hold the gun to get his attention?

MARY: That’s what I would think. That’s just…just wanted to talk to him.

OPRAH: And you wanted to talk to him holding a gun?

MARY: I was so afraid.

OPRAH: Because you thought he would do what?

MARY: At that point, it was…I didn’t think…at that point,I felt like my life was in danger.

OPRAH: So you chose to speak to him by getting the gun. What did you wanna say?

MARY WINKLER: Just to stop. Just–be happy. He just…he had to be miserable the way he acted, and just to stop being so mean.

OPRAH: Mm-hmm.

MARY: And just relax and enjoy life.

OPRAH: That’s what you’d wanted to say to him?

MARY: Mm-hmm.

Here are other clues that Mary exhibits on the Oprah show that I believe strongly point to deception:

ONE
Mary displays classic “thinking-on-your-feet” behavior throughout the majority of her interview. Her sentences are spliced and all chopped up. She says little snippets of information — but not complete sentences. She pauses at odd times — over and over. All of which are red flags.

Here is one example:

OPRAH: Was it what you expected marriage to be?

MARY : Well…um…no. I just remember at some point… the….just being shocked…um… at the yelling and the…just this different person.

TWO
Mary also doesn’t speak in a manner that is consistent with memory recall. When we recall our past, we tell a story. We explain what happened in a coherent manner. We don’t pause because the story rolls off the top of head. Often times, in memory recall, the words flow faster than we can speak them. I see none of this with Mary. Instead, I see someone who appears to be brainstorming. She strangely doesn’t use pronouns much of the time which is another trait of liars.

Example 1:

OPRAH : Yes. And what surprised you the most? Did you see a side of him that you hadn’t seen when you were dating?

MARY: Mm-hmm. And the things that he would say… just off the wall. And … I didn’t understand where he was coming from. I didn’t understand his train of thought.

OPRAH WINFREY: Like what?

MARY: Um…he just…one day…he may encourage me to be with family, and… then… another day, he may say… we’re…you’re never talking to them again. It just…it was just sad. I mean… I don’t think he… knew exactly all that he was thinking all the time.

Example 2:

OPRAH: And how did that rage show itself in other ways? Would he rage against you?

MARY: Mm-hmm. Just certain thing…see…I couldn’t tell you one thing…what was the reason was. If something upset him…if he’s having a bad day that was just all there was about it. There was no…it was just get out of the way. He was just…he verbally could just say some very horrible things.

Mary’s words don’t even make sentence or answer the question she is being asked. Mary’s answers also lack detail and personal identity as well — which is also inconsistent with memory recollection. Each of these things mentioned above hints at deception.

THREE
Also, throughout the interview with Oprah, Mary makes expressions with her lips that are odd. She purses them together at times which is an indication she is holding things back. I thought she came onto Oprah to help other women. Why is she holding back?

Many times, she purses her lips together and drops the outer edges of her lips down like when you say, “Hmmm…I don’t know. Let me think about it.”

This facial expression indicates that Mary likely doesn’t know the answers to the questions she is being asked — which fits with her speech pattern of talk-pause, talk-pause and her inability to give precise, clear definitive answers. I suspect it is because she didn’t experience what she is telling us.

People never turn the outer edge of their lips down when they are certain of what they are saying. It’s one of the biggest clues I see on a regular basis that someone is hedging on me and not being honest when they use words to try to tell me otherwise.

Mary makes several more expressions which are odd.

FOUR
Mary also lacks any emotions or caring. She shows no signs of having an attachment to anyone — not even her children. She shows no regard or pain for what her children endured, or are enduring because of what she did. Did you notice her children don’t even enter into the equation — and supposedly she wants her kids back!

She even suggests that Matthew smothered the children with a pillow to shut them up, and that doesn’t even evoke emotion. This is abnormal and odd. It makes me question what she says, over and over again.

FIVE
Also, Mary tells us she “loves” Matthew still — which is really off the mark. If someone abuses you, and then you kill them in self-preservation — you can say you still love them. That is absolutely a possibility — I’ve seen people do it and say it honestly. But if Mary was being honest in saying this, wouldn’t she be the slightest bit remorseful? When we love someone and we hurt them, it devastates us. Why is Mary not feeling this emotion?

I can even accept a woman who kills her abusive husband, and has no remorse due to the fact she suffered dearly at the hands of sick man for years. But then, I would not expect to hear the words “I love him”.

You can’t have it both ways. It’s inconsistent. It’s like saying you love the guy who cracked your skull open with a bat, but you hope he gets the death penalty and dies. It’s nonsense. We never wish to harm or kill those we love. Ever.

SIX
Mary also acts like she is answering questions for a job interview — not telling the most painful story of her life. This is a huge red flag! Even if she was emotionally vacant and overwhelmed by her situation, we would still see snippets of emotions — feelings of pain and violation or expressions of love for her children – but strangely this is not the case for Mary.

So many people have said, yes, but that is because she is traumatized and emotionally withdrawn. I’m not buying that. If she was that traumatized still, would she be coming out saying that she wants to help other people on the Oprah show — and go on TV in front of millions of people– when she herself is still in shambles? It’s highly unlikely.

SEVEN
Compare Mary to Susan Still. Susan was a battered woman, who was soft-spoken and subservient to her husband, like Mary wants us to think she was. Yet the behavior between the two is drastically different. Susan has emotions, expresses feelings and complete thoughts. She expresses how she cares about her children, and how this will effect their lives — and how it has affected hers. Susan genuinely recollect her horrible ordeal and it shows.

Furthermore, Susan gives us details and facts. She explains what she thought, how she coped and how she got through her ordeal. She gives advice and insight. She speaks in a way that is consistent with memory recall. She doesn’t tell us how she loves her abuser now either, does she? You can feel her resentment towards him which is natural.

EIGHT
Mary got her facts wrong, which I find incredibly disturbing. It wasn’t like when Oprah asked her the question, she didn’t hear her, or got confused. It wasn’t like she struggled to answer the question. Oh, no. She went right into her story, and oops, forgot the details.

FINAL NOTE
In the end, this is really just the tip of the iceberg of what I see when I look at Mary. I see pages and pages more, but if I wrote it all up, I’d have a book on my hands, not a blog post. This post is long enough as it is. If you are interested in this interview, you can purchase the transcripts from Oprah.com to see more detail.

Phil Spector: As the Jury Deliberates

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As I write this, the jury is still in deliberation on the Lana Clarkson/Phil Spector murder trial. I have been asked to review this case for months, and with no intent to upset anyone, I just had no motivation to look into the case: Quite simply because Spector never made a public statement nor did he testify on his own behalf, and Clarkson was dead.

With that, I didn’t want to shift through all the videos on Court TV.com to determine who was who, and who was honest. I actually don’t spend much time researching case facts. I much prefer to simply watch suspects and victims talk: it’s much more accurate and requires less time. But luck has arrived for those of you who are still interested. Dateline NBC did a nice roundup of the case for me yesterday, and I watched it today. They titled it aptly Facing the Music.

Read moreDateline gave brief facts of the case, and then showed a fair amount of people testifying about their relationships with both Spector and Clarkson, which is just what I need. With testimony, I can usually pick out the honest people, and from their testimony surmise the truth with decent accuracy. I don’t need to hear all the case details. The facts of the case, while they enter into my ears, are usually taken with a grain of salt, especially in a case of a wealthy person. There is an expert to support every belief, somewhere, if you have time and money to seek them out. I’ve seen it one too many times, unfortunately. As Dateline says, “…no Hollywood jury has ever found a major celebrity guilty of murder.” Eerie.

______________________________

Perhaps money was his lure,
but his company the distraction?
______________________________

With that, do I think Clarkson killed herself? I do not, and I say that confidently and without hesitation. I think most people with reason can come to this determination. You don’t need wizard insight here. This is a case of logic and listening to people’s accounts of their relationships with both Spector and Clarkson, and applying logic. It doesn’t take much more than that.

Spector was a social misfit from a very young age. He was “off beat” and “awkward” until he started producing music. That’s when life came easier to him to a degree. He got the opportunity to enjoy the company of woman, and married four times. Obviously, staying married was difficult for Spector. Perhaps money was his lure, but his company was the distraction?

Add to that that Spector’s father committed suicide, and he himself had been diagnosed as a manic-depressive. Spector’s medical past doesn’t stand on stable ground, and through testimony in the trial, many women attest to this fact for decades. Many women testify about how Spector would surprise them with a gun, often when they were leaving and tell them that they weren’t going anywhere. He’d threaten them in attempt to gain control of what he had no control over: women.

(from Dateline NBC)
Dianne Ogden: He was screaming at me. He was screaming the f-word. You’re not f-ing leaving … He had a gun to my face, a pistol of some sort. I wouldn’t look at it. I couldn’t, you know. I was afraid to touch it, I was afraid it would go off. I wasn’t sure if it was loaded, and he had it here (moving her finger like a gun over her face) here, he put it all over me.

Melissa Grovsnor: He walked right up to me and held the gun right to my face. With just inches between my eyes and said if you try to leave I’m going to kill you.

Dorothy Melvin: He took his right hand that was holding the revolver and smacked me in the side of the head and said I told you to get the f- back in the house. Eventually he got up and he back handed me with the pistol again and said I told you to take your f-ing clothes off.

When I watched the women talk, it was cement on the block against Spector. They were honest in their accounts of how Spector treated them. Why would we believe Spector would act any different this night?

Add to this that Spector’s driver saw Spector in the doorway with a gun in his hand, and he heard him say, “I think I killed somebody.” That’s pretty damning alone but seeing the driver say it nails it for me. He is confident about what he heard and saw that night. He had no doubts. What would be his reason for lying be anyway? To lie would be to cut off his left arm– sending himself into the unemployment line.

Spector was a serious social misfit, outcast by his oddities, and I believe Spector had great anger inside him that had been brewing over a lifetime. He had it all, but the company of women, women who liked and wanted to be around him. And as he aged, fewer and fewer could handle a dirty old man who I suspect lusted after them. More and more women flew out that door than he could handle, and I think he finally pulled the trigger in a fit of rage.

Sepctor is a man with wealth and power, but little ability to keep women in his life for a satisfactory relationship that mends the wounds of life. Something so simple, that every poor man can enjoy, and all the money in the world couldn’t buy: true companionship.

Clarkson, while certainly facing a difficult time in life, hits me as a woman who endured and forged on. Sure, she may have spoken of a need to pull the plug to a friend, but many women will tell you they feel they can’t go on, but don’t mean a thing by it.

Clarkson had fought to make it in Hollywood for years, without ever making it big, and she was still trying, still hopeful underneath it all. As a matter of fact, she had just landed another part that she had yet to complete. If she was contemplating suicide, why would she still be trying? People who commit suicide often plan it out, slowly withdrawing from life. It didn’t appear that Clarkson was withdrawing from what I could see? She was still calling her friends and going out, too.

The majority of women statistically don’t kill themselves with a gun, either. Nor would I suspect women who do use a gun for suicide, use it in front of other people. They do it when they are alone, so they can be sure to get it right and won’t be talked out of it.

And last, I bet it is exceptionally rare, if even documented before, that a woman has gone to a stranger’s house and pulled the trigger on herself. That’s just out of the logical ball park, folks. It doesn’t happen, or if it has, it is statistically one-in-a-million odds.

I suspect Clarkson saw Spector that night and realized the enormity of the situation before her. Here was a powerhouse in Hollywood, and I suspect she thought perhaps if she shared a drink with him, he might return a favor to her in hopes of kindling a relationship with her. Perhaps he would connect her to the right people. Perhaps she thought her good looks might help her. Little did she know, they may have been the reason for her end.