Here is an interesting video. What do you see when you watch these two women talk?
https://www.eyesforlies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/black-logo-smaller.jpg00Eyes for Lieshttps://www.eyesforlies.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/black-logo-smaller.jpgEyes for Lies2015-04-23 12:21:292015-04-23 12:21:29Study of Honesty
29replies
Shubham Mittal says:
I don’t know much about deception, I just started this week after watching the series “lie to me” for the first time but both of the women obviously are speaking the truth to me. Just some character difference between both girls, first one seems a bit more egocentric than the other, failed to spot more than that actually. Just Learning 🙂
Karon says:
They seemed very genuine, to me. I believed both girls.
Mark H says:
I did not believe either of these girls at first. I mistook their demeanor being more or less comfortable talking about it (all things considered) as an attempt to spin some yarn or at least minimize their role in the act (i.e. regret rape). It appeared to me that the second girl may have been brandishing her emotions a bit. And the first girl seemed way too open about talking about her rape. But after hearing Eyes’ opinion of their motivation it makes sense to me that they are being honest.
R Tracker says:
Hi Mark.
I like your post.
Do you think the thought / feeling “that they seem too comfortable talking about being raped” may have been informed by a societial bias that labels women as “emotional” and men as “stoic”?
I recall news interviews (from the Boston area) with grown men discussing being raped as children by priests. These men chose to keep their emotions fairly steady during these interviews.
It does beg the question, “how does one talk about rape and be seen as credible?”
This seems to be the central issue for boys, girls, men and women who are raped and confused / conflicted about coming forward.
Brent says:
Philosophically however the question you ask does not help the victim or future victims.
That question demands even more of the victim, they have to speak in a certain way so that we can believe them. That might mean you have even less victims come forward because they suspect they won’t be believed because of they way they talk. Plus it really is a never-ending-excuse-maker for the listener who doesn’t want to help. For example ‘ I didn’t believe her because her accent made her words difficult to understand. [and if only she spoke properly then I would have helped her]’ or ‘she spoke slowly, and so I thought she might have had some sort of mental illness [and imagined things]’
The opposite question would be more useful for society.
If someone comes to us for help, what is it about us, as listeners, that makes us not want to believe them?
This doesn’t just happen to rape victims, with lots of victims, people don’t want to hear what they’re saying. They don’t want to believe what they are saying.
Tracker says:
If a woman goes to the police and files a rape report, no matter what her demeanor, accent, ect is, they will be believed almost without exception. It’s not their demeanor that makes them not be believed it’s inconsistencies in their stories or circumstances surrounding the events. In Kelsey’s case it’s the extremely high blood alcohol content. She was essentially black out drunk. It’s not her credibility that necessarily in question but her actual memories might be corrupted, enough for reasonable doubt. It’s not that Kelsey’s claim isn’t believable or credible, it’s just not prosecutor.
Brent says:
Interesting you didn’t seem to comment on a single thing I said.
Tracker says:
“That question demands even more of the victim, they have to speak in a certain way so that we can believe them.” – They don’t need to speak in a certain way, they just need to be consistent. She will be believed by the authorities which is what matters since she’ll be typically shielded from media exposure. There are circumstances, such as getting blackout drunk, that will impugn her credibility, but that has nothing to do with how she talks.
Brent says:
That view is simplistic to me. Authorities are not computers taking statements as facts without being effected by values and beliefs.
I take it you have never been in a victim’s shoes trying to defend yourself as if you were the guilty one?
Besides you say they only have to be ‘consistent’.
The authority figure only needs to say ‘She seemed certain on this fact but not certain at all on this, she wasn’t consistent’
Consistency can be interpreted in lots of ways yet you state it as if it is a certain reality.
Tracker says:
There are going to be exceptions, like when the accused has a high status and public profile (for example Ben Rothlesberg’s first accuser and Kobe Bryant’s). But those situations are rare exceptions. It may be simplistic but it’s true, if a woman call 911 or goes to the police station and reports a rape or assault the police arrests or issues an arrest warrant for the accused if they are known.
“Why do you think the rape victim in the video felt the need to get a recorded confession; because she knew she wouldn’t be believed otherwise.” – Allison didn’t want to file charges at first. If she waited 18 months to file without the recording her claim might now have been as strong, but I have a feeling it would have turned out the same way (especially given a 2nd accuser turned up). It’s still a criminal complaint, and there’s still the presumption of innocence and guilt must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Recording that conversation was just the prudent thing to do.
Now as far why so many are instantly skeptical of rape and assault claims, I can’t speak for everyone but I can give my reasons. There are women who use false rape and assault claims to manipulate the justice system in order avoid responsibility, lash out at someone they are angry with, and to get a better standing in family court. It may be I get a little sense of outrage each time I hear a story like that so my perception may be skewed, but it seems to happen a lot and the women almost never suffer any consequences for it.
Brent says:
Tracker,
2.50 Allison did not want to to go the police about it. Imagine a law system where a victim does not want to take it to the police. What’s the cause of that?
Imagine how they would have treated her case without the recording, before the 2nd accuser turned up? I bet it would have been treated very differently. But even so, look at another case where there are literally dozens of women accusing Cosby of rape and yet there would be numberless people saying the women are liars, they’ve after his money, they’re all on it together… they’re, they’re, they’re… the actual bad ones, every single one of them.
My neighbors agree with that viewpoint.
BUT you have raised some very important points about false accusations and what the consequences of that should be. What, if any, are the consequences for false rape accusations?
Perhaps if that side was addressed we wouldn’t find it so hard to prosecute the actual rapists.
Tracker says:
Allison didn’t want to got to the police right away cause she considered him a friend. She probably had concern about what would happen to him. It’s understandable. She still had the rape kit from the hospital, so I think they would have gotten a conviction regardless, but the recording and 2nd victim certainly strengthened her claim.
As for false accusations, there are no easy answers. NBA player Dante Cunningham’s ex sent threatening text messages to herself in order to frame him. He declined to press charges for filing a false report saying something about how he feared there would be chilling consequences for real victims of domestic violence. I think he would have better served real victims by holding her accountable and pressing charges.
Right after my last comment I started reading the lawsuit filed against Columbia U regarding how they handled Emma Sulkowicz. She created a lot of media attention by carrying a mattress to all her classes as some kind of demonstration and vowed to do so while ‘her rapist’ is still on campus. She was held up as the poster child for how universities poorly handle rape claims. She was even invited to the State of the Union Address. Although we’ll never know for sure what did or did not happen, but to me the evidence suggest she just made it up. But just like it’s hard to prove rape allegations sometimes it’s just as hard to prove false rape allegations. I wish she would be held accountable, but I think it’s more likely she’ll be lauded for her courage or whatever. You can read the complaint here and judge for yourself https://kcjohnson.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/nungesser-complaint.pdf
Brent says:
“It’s ridiculous that he would read it as a ‘bullying strategy’, especially given his continued public attempts to smear my reputation, when really it’s just an artistic expression of the personal trauma I’ve experienced at Columbia. If artists are not allowed to make art that reflect on our experiences, then how are we to heal?” http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/24/columbia-university-lawsuit-mattress-project-emma-sulkowicz
“To be completely honest, this is actually the first piece I’ve ever made that wasn’t assigned to me. Every other piece has been, like, ‘make a sculpture that is monumental.’ But this is the first one where I had the idea, I called in the resources I needed, I made the phone calls to order the mattress when I needed it, and I put it all together by myself, beginning to end.” http://bwog.com/2014/09/05/speaking-with-emma-sulkowicz/
She, doesn’t sound believable at all.
Tracker says:
Also Cosby is different, one of those high status high public profile cases. Plus most of his crimes took place in an era where rape allegations were handled much differently. But coming forward so long after the fact I do understand how people would be skeptical.
Ann Burlingham says:
“It seems to happen a lot”? Only in fiction. In real life, not so much.
Tracker says:
It happen’s with athletes. Ray McDonald’s case is still open, but he says he had video evidence that the sex in question was consensual. He wouldn’t have been able to sign with the Bears in today’s climate if the evidence wasn’t compelling. Brian Banks served 6 years for a rape he didn’t commit. Other than this episode of Nightline every report of a college gang bang rape has turned out to be false (Duke, Hofstra, and UVA). That’s why it’s hard to find Kelsey (from the Nightline video), or Jameis Winston’s accuser completely credible at face value.
“Do you think the thought / feeling “that they seem too comfortable talking about being raped” may have been informed by a societial bias that labels women as “emotional” and men as “stoic”?”
No. I expected the women to have a more difficult time (i.e. more emotional) relating their stories. I thought they were brandishing emotions because they looked straight ahead and barreled through their stories rather than looked down and had weaker body language.
Your question about credibility is that same for any crime or any situation where someone wants and needs to be seen as credible. It’s difficult for all of us to tell if someone is being truthful.
cecilia says:
They’ve probably told the stories innumerable times, though, while dealing with all sorts of doubt/blame. Open weakness? Unlikely anyone strong and proud enough to deal with what they’ve been through would be showing that all over the place.
R Tracker says:
I see vulnerability, devastation, courage and hope.
Tracker says:
In Allison you can clearly hear the pain in her voice throughout. I see a lot of fear, anger, and pain, as well as attempts to fight back to emotions.
With Kelsey I see mostly anger. The other victim-type emotions are muted. Maybe it’s because so much time has passed, or maybe she was numb physically and mentally during the attack, or maybe she is just tired of feeling like a victim and won’t allow herself to feel those emotions anymore.
Shi Yan says:
Agree with you, the difference between both woman is one was rape by a group of people while the other is someone she knows almost her whole life. This was my initial observation:
1st woman: I’m struggling to understand her. She’s lacking the emotions (I saw contempt only) like she’s de-attached from what occurred.
2nd woman: Sadness and fear. Betrayed. I feel pity for her, she’s seriously traumatized.
Sara says:
I see no fear in Allison nor anger. I see sadness and pain due betrayal, she can’t believe what her friend have done to her.
There’s no anger in Kelsey either, she sad. Yes there is contempt, but due fact, that she able to talk about what happened publicly.
clownfish says:
They seem really genuine. The blond girl has taken on a very tough stance after facing the reality that the police didn’t help her. The other one is dealing with the betrayal of a friendship as well as rape.
Brent says:
I don’t believe her (based on quick analysis).
Her comments I posted make it seem like the mattress was an art piece – conflated with her past high school rape – and the break up with her boyfriend Paul – and the art is the important issue.
From wikipedia:
Conflation occurs when the identities of two or more individuals, concepts, or places, sharing some characteristics of one another, seem to be a single identity — the differences appear to become lost
Motivation: The semblance of the truth make the mattress-art even more powerful, meaningful and seemingly relevant.
Unfortunately she can’t see the lack of ethics in accusing someone, of rape when they are innocent in the cause of her art and attention drawn to it. That explains why Paul is suing the university/professor also because they accepted this ongoing conduct of their student, for her art project, for grades, after discussion.
Brent says:
To me the sad feeling shows the importance of this case in terms of getting to the truth of the matter and showing what is acceptable behaviour.
I don’t have the names straight, but the dark haired woman, when she says she felt pain and pressure and when she says she heard moaning, she says it with a disgusted, contemptuous tone that I would feel in that situation. Like, “Someone was enjoying something that was horrific abuse of me.” I didn’t watch the light haired woman because I had to deal with a fight between my kids. The woman raped by Beau has clearly told this story more times than she ever wanted to and she is worried about appearing credible.
Kitty says:
Allison is definitely sincere but I’m not sure I believe Kelsey. She has hard eyes.
David says:
The blond haired girl (shown first) is flat, shows no emotion when telling her story. She’s just reciting (infactual) events, without emotion and a dead-pan expression. It’s pretty much “I took some shots and he put a penis in my face.”
Is “he put a penis in my face” the thing you’re talking about? It must be traumatizing seeing a penis close-up.
I don’t know much about deception, I just started this week after watching the series “lie to me” for the first time but both of the women obviously are speaking the truth to me. Just some character difference between both girls, first one seems a bit more egocentric than the other, failed to spot more than that actually. Just Learning 🙂
They seemed very genuine, to me. I believed both girls.
I did not believe either of these girls at first. I mistook their demeanor being more or less comfortable talking about it (all things considered) as an attempt to spin some yarn or at least minimize their role in the act (i.e. regret rape). It appeared to me that the second girl may have been brandishing her emotions a bit. And the first girl seemed way too open about talking about her rape. But after hearing Eyes’ opinion of their motivation it makes sense to me that they are being honest.
Hi Mark.
I like your post.
Do you think the thought / feeling “that they seem too comfortable talking about being raped” may have been informed by a societial bias that labels women as “emotional” and men as “stoic”?
I recall news interviews (from the Boston area) with grown men discussing being raped as children by priests. These men chose to keep their emotions fairly steady during these interviews.
It does beg the question, “how does one talk about rape and be seen as credible?”
This seems to be the central issue for boys, girls, men and women who are raped and confused / conflicted about coming forward.
Philosophically however the question you ask does not help the victim or future victims.
That question demands even more of the victim, they have to speak in a certain way so that we can believe them. That might mean you have even less victims come forward because they suspect they won’t be believed because of they way they talk. Plus it really is a never-ending-excuse-maker for the listener who doesn’t want to help. For example ‘ I didn’t believe her because her accent made her words difficult to understand. [and if only she spoke properly then I would have helped her]’ or ‘she spoke slowly, and so I thought she might have had some sort of mental illness [and imagined things]’
The opposite question would be more useful for society.
If someone comes to us for help, what is it about us, as listeners, that makes us not want to believe them?
This doesn’t just happen to rape victims, with lots of victims, people don’t want to hear what they’re saying. They don’t want to believe what they are saying.
If a woman goes to the police and files a rape report, no matter what her demeanor, accent, ect is, they will be believed almost without exception. It’s not their demeanor that makes them not be believed it’s inconsistencies in their stories or circumstances surrounding the events. In Kelsey’s case it’s the extremely high blood alcohol content. She was essentially black out drunk. It’s not her credibility that necessarily in question but her actual memories might be corrupted, enough for reasonable doubt. It’s not that Kelsey’s claim isn’t believable or credible, it’s just not prosecutor.
Interesting you didn’t seem to comment on a single thing I said.
“That question demands even more of the victim, they have to speak in a certain way so that we can believe them.” – They don’t need to speak in a certain way, they just need to be consistent. She will be believed by the authorities which is what matters since she’ll be typically shielded from media exposure. There are circumstances, such as getting blackout drunk, that will impugn her credibility, but that has nothing to do with how she talks.
That view is simplistic to me. Authorities are not computers taking statements as facts without being effected by values and beliefs.
I take it you have never been in a victim’s shoes trying to defend yourself as if you were the guilty one?
Besides you say they only have to be ‘consistent’.
The authority figure only needs to say ‘She seemed certain on this fact but not certain at all on this, she wasn’t consistent’
Consistency can be interpreted in lots of ways yet you state it as if it is a certain reality.
There are going to be exceptions, like when the accused has a high status and public profile (for example Ben Rothlesberg’s first accuser and Kobe Bryant’s). But those situations are rare exceptions. It may be simplistic but it’s true, if a woman call 911 or goes to the police station and reports a rape or assault the police arrests or issues an arrest warrant for the accused if they are known.
“Why do you think the rape victim in the video felt the need to get a recorded confession; because she knew she wouldn’t be believed otherwise.” – Allison didn’t want to file charges at first. If she waited 18 months to file without the recording her claim might now have been as strong, but I have a feeling it would have turned out the same way (especially given a 2nd accuser turned up). It’s still a criminal complaint, and there’s still the presumption of innocence and guilt must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Recording that conversation was just the prudent thing to do.
Now as far why so many are instantly skeptical of rape and assault claims, I can’t speak for everyone but I can give my reasons. There are women who use false rape and assault claims to manipulate the justice system in order avoid responsibility, lash out at someone they are angry with, and to get a better standing in family court. It may be I get a little sense of outrage each time I hear a story like that so my perception may be skewed, but it seems to happen a lot and the women almost never suffer any consequences for it.
Tracker,
2.50 Allison did not want to to go the police about it. Imagine a law system where a victim does not want to take it to the police. What’s the cause of that?
Imagine how they would have treated her case without the recording, before the 2nd accuser turned up? I bet it would have been treated very differently. But even so, look at another case where there are literally dozens of women accusing Cosby of rape and yet there would be numberless people saying the women are liars, they’ve after his money, they’re all on it together… they’re, they’re, they’re… the actual bad ones, every single one of them.
My neighbors agree with that viewpoint.
BUT you have raised some very important points about false accusations and what the consequences of that should be. What, if any, are the consequences for false rape accusations?
Perhaps if that side was addressed we wouldn’t find it so hard to prosecute the actual rapists.
Allison didn’t want to got to the police right away cause she considered him a friend. She probably had concern about what would happen to him. It’s understandable. She still had the rape kit from the hospital, so I think they would have gotten a conviction regardless, but the recording and 2nd victim certainly strengthened her claim.
As for false accusations, there are no easy answers. NBA player Dante Cunningham’s ex sent threatening text messages to herself in order to frame him. He declined to press charges for filing a false report saying something about how he feared there would be chilling consequences for real victims of domestic violence. I think he would have better served real victims by holding her accountable and pressing charges.
Right after my last comment I started reading the lawsuit filed against Columbia U regarding how they handled Emma Sulkowicz. She created a lot of media attention by carrying a mattress to all her classes as some kind of demonstration and vowed to do so while ‘her rapist’ is still on campus. She was held up as the poster child for how universities poorly handle rape claims. She was even invited to the State of the Union Address. Although we’ll never know for sure what did or did not happen, but to me the evidence suggest she just made it up. But just like it’s hard to prove rape allegations sometimes it’s just as hard to prove false rape allegations. I wish she would be held accountable, but I think it’s more likely she’ll be lauded for her courage or whatever. You can read the complaint here and judge for yourself https://kcjohnson.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/nungesser-complaint.pdf
“It’s ridiculous that he would read it as a ‘bullying strategy’, especially given his continued public attempts to smear my reputation, when really it’s just an artistic expression of the personal trauma I’ve experienced at Columbia. If artists are not allowed to make art that reflect on our experiences, then how are we to heal?”
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/24/columbia-university-lawsuit-mattress-project-emma-sulkowicz
“To be completely honest, this is actually the first piece I’ve ever made that wasn’t assigned to me. Every other piece has been, like, ‘make a sculpture that is monumental.’ But this is the first one where I had the idea, I called in the resources I needed, I made the phone calls to order the mattress when I needed it, and I put it all together by myself, beginning to end.”
http://bwog.com/2014/09/05/speaking-with-emma-sulkowicz/
She, doesn’t sound believable at all.
Also Cosby is different, one of those high status high public profile cases. Plus most of his crimes took place in an era where rape allegations were handled much differently. But coming forward so long after the fact I do understand how people would be skeptical.
“It seems to happen a lot”? Only in fiction. In real life, not so much.
It happen’s with athletes. Ray McDonald’s case is still open, but he says he had video evidence that the sex in question was consensual. He wouldn’t have been able to sign with the Bears in today’s climate if the evidence wasn’t compelling. Brian Banks served 6 years for a rape he didn’t commit. Other than this episode of Nightline every report of a college gang bang rape has turned out to be false (Duke, Hofstra, and UVA). That’s why it’s hard to find Kelsey (from the Nightline video), or Jameis Winston’s accuser completely credible at face value.
It may just “seem like” it happens a lot cause the media sensationalizes a few cases. But it does happen. And it seems like everytime it comes up it’s right after another case. For example yesterday I came across this case where in Sweden this 15 year old was falsely accused of rape, but then gets charged with defamation for video taping the encounter with his cell phone: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.friatider.se%2Fraddades-undan-valdtaktsdom-tack-vare-film-falls-istallet-for-fortal&edit-text=&act=url
“Do you think the thought / feeling “that they seem too comfortable talking about being raped” may have been informed by a societial bias that labels women as “emotional” and men as “stoic”?”
No. I expected the women to have a more difficult time (i.e. more emotional) relating their stories. I thought they were brandishing emotions because they looked straight ahead and barreled through their stories rather than looked down and had weaker body language.
Your question about credibility is that same for any crime or any situation where someone wants and needs to be seen as credible. It’s difficult for all of us to tell if someone is being truthful.
They’ve probably told the stories innumerable times, though, while dealing with all sorts of doubt/blame. Open weakness? Unlikely anyone strong and proud enough to deal with what they’ve been through would be showing that all over the place.
I see vulnerability, devastation, courage and hope.
In Allison you can clearly hear the pain in her voice throughout. I see a lot of fear, anger, and pain, as well as attempts to fight back to emotions.
With Kelsey I see mostly anger. The other victim-type emotions are muted. Maybe it’s because so much time has passed, or maybe she was numb physically and mentally during the attack, or maybe she is just tired of feeling like a victim and won’t allow herself to feel those emotions anymore.
Agree with you, the difference between both woman is one was rape by a group of people while the other is someone she knows almost her whole life. This was my initial observation:
1st woman: I’m struggling to understand her. She’s lacking the emotions (I saw contempt only) like she’s de-attached from what occurred.
2nd woman: Sadness and fear. Betrayed. I feel pity for her, she’s seriously traumatized.
I see no fear in Allison nor anger. I see sadness and pain due betrayal, she can’t believe what her friend have done to her.
There’s no anger in Kelsey either, she sad. Yes there is contempt, but due fact, that she able to talk about what happened publicly.
They seem really genuine. The blond girl has taken on a very tough stance after facing the reality that the police didn’t help her. The other one is dealing with the betrayal of a friendship as well as rape.
I don’t believe her (based on quick analysis).
Her comments I posted make it seem like the mattress was an art piece – conflated with her past high school rape – and the break up with her boyfriend Paul – and the art is the important issue.
From wikipedia:
Conflation occurs when the identities of two or more individuals, concepts, or places, sharing some characteristics of one another, seem to be a single identity — the differences appear to become lost
Motivation: The semblance of the truth make the mattress-art even more powerful, meaningful and seemingly relevant.
Unfortunately she can’t see the lack of ethics in accusing someone, of rape when they are innocent in the cause of her art and attention drawn to it. That explains why Paul is suing the university/professor also because they accepted this ongoing conduct of their student, for her art project, for grades, after discussion.
To me the sad feeling shows the importance of this case in terms of getting to the truth of the matter and showing what is acceptable behaviour.
I don’t have the names straight, but the dark haired woman, when she says she felt pain and pressure and when she says she heard moaning, she says it with a disgusted, contemptuous tone that I would feel in that situation. Like, “Someone was enjoying something that was horrific abuse of me.” I didn’t watch the light haired woman because I had to deal with a fight between my kids. The woman raped by Beau has clearly told this story more times than she ever wanted to and she is worried about appearing credible.
Allison is definitely sincere but I’m not sure I believe Kelsey. She has hard eyes.
The blond haired girl (shown first) is flat, shows no emotion when telling her story. She’s just reciting (infactual) events, without emotion and a dead-pan expression. It’s pretty much “I took some shots and he put a penis in my face.”
Is “he put a penis in my face” the thing you’re talking about? It must be traumatizing seeing a penis close-up.
I see no reason to disbelieve these girls. I think they are honest.